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<  9 1/2 und 1200 Sport  ~  9 1/2 Engine rebuild and other stuff

VesaII
Verfasst am: 16.6.2018, 17:10 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 143
Adjusting Ebis Scrambler map for more time (fuel) with value of 1.13 was piece of cake but still after some time with TunerPro it is hard to understand current deltas.

Injection have some variation whic need to be corrected per bike, but wonder if they really are possible to import to some other bike 1:1 or is it better to remove delta completely and build own when on dyno.

Ignition is even more weird. How on earth there can be 30% difference between cylinders and there is even two different deltas?!

Please, can someone explain how we should see this?




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Vesa
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Ebi
Verfasst am: 17.6.2018, 21:43 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 19.11.2010 Beiträge: 1206 Wohnort: Backnang
Hi Vesa,
I gave up to understand the delta maps, but in general the vertical cyl in all maps runs richer compared to the horizontal. There is only one delta ignition map, but it's position within the BIN-File is not 100% clear, therefore the question marks in the second delta ignition.

In general, I find it little bit dangerous to apply major changes to the ignition maps and more save to concentrate on the fuel maps during dyno runs.

For the first dyno run, I would suggest to start either with this scrambler map or the 23ECMOLSPTA and see, how far the resulting AFR/lambda values are away from optimum.

Zitat:
but wonder if they really are possible to import to some other bike 1:1

Those two maps, I sent you, were imported to many other bikes, so the answer is: Yes.
Some fine tuning maybe necessary, of course.

All these statements and maps apply to the original injectors. If you use Bosch injectors, you enter "green field" Mr. Green , nobody knows, which mapping the Bosch injectors need. Maybe, you store your videos of injector testing at youtube, that everybody can see these very interesting comparision between original and Bosch ?

br,
Ebi

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VesaII
Verfasst am: 17.6.2018, 22:15 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 143
Ebi hat Folgendes geschrieben:
Hi Vesa,
I gave up to understand the delta maps, but in general the vertical cyl in all maps runs richer compared to the horizontal. There is only one delta ignition map, but it's position within the BIN-File is not 100% clear, therefore the question marks in the second delta ignition.

In general, I find it little bit dangerous to apply major changes to the ignition maps and more save to concentrate on the fuel maps during dyno runs.

For the first dyno run, I would suggest to start either with this scrambler map or the 23ECMOLSPTA and see, how far the resulting AFR/lambda values are away from optimum.

Zitat:
but wonder if they really are possible to import to some other bike 1:1

Those two maps, I sent you, were imported to many other bikes, so the answer is: Yes.
Some fine tuning maybe necessary, of course.

br,
Ebi


Did ask dyno guy too. He say the same: do not touch ignition.

And yes, Scrambler map looks good, main fuels map just needed this x1.13.

Hope it gives proper colour for spark plugs and helps engine to run without being lean as it is long way to this dyno.

Do you know how fuel map relates to open times of injector. Which values indicates 70% and 80% opentimes?

Will also do some research in hope to get clarity of deltas or maybe someone here knows already...?

Thanks

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Vesa
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Ebi
Verfasst am: 17.6.2018, 22:40 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 19.11.2010 Beiträge: 1206 Wohnort: Backnang
Zitat:
main fuels map just needed this x1.13


This is easy to do with tunerpro, but why ? This scrambler map is a result of a dyno run hmmmm


Zitat:
Will also do some research in hope to get clarity of deltas


In my opinion, the original fuel delta maps of the corsaro don't make any sense at all. Big differences of fuel amount between adjacent points. I applied some smoothing via the graphical tunerpro interface, but of course the dyno results are crucial.

br,
Ebi

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VesaII
Verfasst am: 18.6.2018, 7:30 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 143
Ebi hat Folgendes geschrieben:
Zitat:
main fuels map just needed this x1.13


This is easy to do with tunerpro, but why ? This scrambler map is a result of a dyno run hmmmm

br,
Ebi


This is cause of my new Bosch injector are measure lower output than original Weber/Marelli ones. On previous page i have explanation about this subject and pictures.

Injector home page: http://www.finjector.com/verkkokauppa/eng/ev14_12_ohm_400_cc_c_jetronic_o_o_34_mm_lyhyt_pico-p-450788-185/

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Vesa
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 18.6.2018, 15:42 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 143
Do you know how to convert fuel values to open times of injectors? It would be interesting to know how far injectors are pushed. According to calculations it should not be much over 70%

And one more confucing fact about deltas and xdf -files. How come it is possible they show this big diference just by changing XDF? Values are multiplied by 250 between them. Why?




And ignition deltas are this way between them





I know, deltas will not be altered this time, but in long run would consistency between xdf files be advantageous for us all...

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Vesa
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Ebi
Verfasst am: 19.6.2018, 0:13 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 19.11.2010 Beiträge: 1206 Wohnort: Backnang
Hi Vesa,
the original source for the XDF "public version" V1.22 is not known to me and for sure, the delta fuel values are not correct in this XDF Laughing, thats why I use my own XDFs Wink. You can have a look at the XDF, maybe someone applied a division or something to the delta values.

The structure of the Corsaro maps and the Scrambler_95 maps is identical, but there is an address offset between them. No rule without exception: There is one Corsaro map (23ECMOLCORC) which uses the same adresses as the Scrambler_95 and if you want to look at this map, of course you have to use the Scrambler_95 XDF.

There are several of our Morini BIN-maps and XDFs available at some sites in the internet someone put there without authorisation. They even did not change the original name (e.g. EbisUltimativeRace etc..) nichtverstehn

br,
Ebi

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VesaII
Verfasst am: 19.6.2018, 20:39 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 143
Ebi hat Folgendes geschrieben:
Hi Vesa,
the original source for the XDF "public version" V1.22 is not known to me and for sure, the delta fuel values are not correct in this XDF Laughing, thats why I use my own XDFs Wink. You can have a look at the XDF, maybe someone applied a division or something to the delta values.

The structure of the Corsaro maps and the Scrambler_95 maps is identical, but there is an address offset between them. No rule without exception: There is one Corsaro map (23ECMOLCORC) which uses the same adresses as the Scrambler_95 and if you want to look at this map, of course you have to use the Scrambler_95 XDF.

There are several of our Morini BIN-maps and XDFs available at some sites in the internet someone put there without authorisation. They even did not change the original name (e.g. EbisUltimativeRace etc..) nichtverstehn

br,
Ebi


Good evening Ebi

Internet is a funny thing, everything can happen Wink

While waiting for pistons to arrive, i try to collect more understanding and avoid false information. It really is no easy task.

But back to business. If i look your 8600 with v1.22 Then i see divisions like 'Throttle positive movement' Wonder if it kind of accelleration pump?

Have you found a list and explanation of those divisions end what for they are and how to use them?


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VesaII
Verfasst am: 24.6.2018, 9:13 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 143
Pistons arrived from www.wahl-spezialkolben.de and they simply are work of art. My friends suggested to put them on pedestal and not inside of a simple engine Smile

Craftsmanship is impressive. You can feel Wahls 50 years of experience. They really have though out every detail they have done, end there sure is more of them applied than i can recognise.




Rings are originally Mahle. Material and profiles per ring are obviously choosen for just this application and fitted perfectly in grooves + extra gas grooves for each ring. Even end gap is exactly the minimun 0,25mm although they had only the knowledge of bore size (107,04). Piston pin bores are honed properly as originally Morini tolerances was much too tight. And pistons must have been balanced, as i recall they were 4grams off, but now less than 1gm. For all work done was price very modest and all this was done in one week delivery time!

I also asked for higher compression pistons. Wahl can custom make them of Mahle forgings, all inclusive and better price than originals, but with much higher quality!!

My conclusion is. If you have any issue or idea about your pistons or rings, do not look any further. There cannot be better place for pistons on whole earth, i bet. Second best supplier i found, is Total Seal, but only for US people. Nice and helpful people though.

For cylinder issues you can contact www.nikasilproffsen.se or www.weber-metallmanufaktur.net

About piston rings:
http://blog.wiseco.com/ring-grooves
www.enginebuildermag.com/2017/03/10-things-might-not-know-pistons-rings

And a few word of beautiful coatings. There is two brand of coatings involved, three different from Tech line, applied by https://martelius.com/en/ceramic-coatings and one from Oerlikon on piston pin, organized by www.ssf-pyora.fi/index_en.shtml

www.oerlikon.com/balzers/com/en/portfolio/balzers-surface-solutions/pvd-and-pacvd-based-coatings/balinit/carbon-dlc-based/balinit-dlc-star/

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4glXa88WF_Y

I guess these pistons will do quite well and last forever…

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Vesa
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 1.7.2018, 21:12 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 143
And one more promising product i found: waterless coolant

www.evanscoolant.com/

It has lot of good properties. One is possibility to raise temperature, without boiling. Will experiment with 102 C first.

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Sir1
Verfasst am: 1.7.2018, 21:34 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 04.01.2007 Beiträge: 1618
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:
And one more promising product i found: waterless coolant

www.evanscoolant.com/

It has lot of good properties. One is possibility to raise temperature, without boiling. Will experiment with 102 C first.


I know this dude is often a bit over the top with his rants, but he usually makes good points:
https://youtu.be/VACKWvcXbXA

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morinist.dk
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 1.7.2018, 21:48 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 143
Sir1 hat Folgendes geschrieben:
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:
And one more promising product i found: waterless coolant

www.evanscoolant.com/

It has lot of good properties. One is possibility to raise temperature, without boiling. Will experiment with 102 C first.


I know this dude is often a bit over the top with his rants, but he usually makes good points:
https://youtu.be/VACKWvcXbXA


This guy seem to be good with simple things, but this issue seem to go over his abilities. This is good example of his quality: www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BprYfw_Ca8 as question of heat is much more complicated. Here you can read of true professional opinions of subject in matter and more: www.topplocksverkstan.se/finitamplitudljudvagor.html Google translator needed though.

And Evans do not say they solve overheating, they only rise the limit.

No corrosion and higher boiling point is enough for me. Will report how this stuff works Smile

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Vesa
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Sir1
Verfasst am: 1.7.2018, 22:07 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 04.01.2007 Beiträge: 1618
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:
Sir1 hat Folgendes geschrieben:
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:
And one more promising product i found: waterless coolant

www.evanscoolant.com/

It has lot of good properties. One is possibility to raise temperature, without boiling. Will experiment with 102 C first.


I know this dude is often a bit over the top with his rants, but he usually makes good points:
https://youtu.be/VACKWvcXbXA


This guy seem to be good with simple things, but this issue seem to go over his abilities and i do not like his style. He is too angry to be objective. And Evans do not say they solve overheating, they only rise the limit.

No corrosion and higher boiling point is enough for me. Will report how this stuff works Smile


Style aside, his arguments hold water (pardon the pun). If you have seen other of his videos, you will know that his abilities quite superseed most peoples. It's not that his rants are based on hunches or feelings. They are based on scientific facts - he actually makes his living doing things according to the laws of nature and well proved science.
He has also made several videos testing Evans (and a lot of other products) in a objective manner, so there's actual backup to his words.

But good luck with your test.

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Sir1
Verfasst am: 1.7.2018, 22:12 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 04.01.2007 Beiträge: 1618
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:
[Here you can read of true professional opinions of subject in matter and more: www.topplocksverkstan.se/finitamplitudljudvagor.html Google translator needed though.


No translation needed for me. But this has nothing to do with coolant

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VesaII
Verfasst am: 1.7.2018, 23:29 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 143
Sir1 hat Folgendes geschrieben:
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:
[Here you can read of true professional opinions of subject in matter and more: www.topplocksverkstan.se/finitamplitudljudvagor.html Google translator needed though.


No translation needed for me. But this has nothing to do with coolant


No, but about short comings of his scientific thinking. You did not look his video about wrappings? This guy does not convince me at all, sorry.

Will get my 2l next week and hope to get bike running asap and here you have explanation why Evans http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/multimedia/Questions-&-Answers/105


Zuletzt bearbeitet von VesaII am 6.10.2018, 16:39, insgesamt einmal bearbeitet

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