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<  9 1/2 und 1200 Sport  ~  9 1/2 Engine rebuild

Sir1
Verfasst am: 2.7.2018, 1:32 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 04.01.2007 Beiträge: 1492
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:

No, but about short comings of his scientific thinking. You did not look his video about wrappings?

If you talk about the exhaust wrapping video, yes, I have seen that one. And as far as I remember, a simple to the point explanation.

I don't see the connection between pressure waves and coolants. I think you have to be more precise with your examples if you want to talk about short comings.

And don't see the benefit of raising engine temperature - on the contrary - But I hope for you that you wont have any damages from that considering all the work you put in it.

Generally, I'm not that convinced about all these miracle products. There's been so many over the years that have come and gone - and most have gone for good because they didn't do any good. If they worked wonders I'm quite sure the industry would use them. And if we for instance look at waterless coolant the ingredients are inexpensive. So cost isn't an argument why the industry isn't using it.

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VesaII
Verfasst am: 2.7.2018, 7:50 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 54
Sir1 hat Folgendes geschrieben:
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:

No, but about short comings of his scientific thinking. You did not look his video about wrappings?

If you talk about the exhaust wrapping video, yes, I have seen that one. And as far as I remember, a simple to the point explanation.



You have right, generally. There is lot of cheating around. But this guy simplifies too much and shouts. For me he is a person who takes advantage of peoples mistrust and aggression.

Engine is a complete system end increasing the gas velocity, which is related to heat, in exhaust can even decrease the power and this guy obviously do not understand it, as he simply say wrappings do not add power. If you read what toplocksverkstad guys say then you understand.

And as i said. No corrosion and no boiling at 102C and no need for chance is reason enough for me to us this juice.

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Br,
VesaII
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Sir1
Verfasst am: 2.7.2018, 8:42 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 04.01.2007 Beiträge: 1492
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:
as he simply say wrappings do not add power.

I think you have to watch it again. He says quite the opposite, but also that it's more complicated than that. He actually says exactly the same as stated in the Swedish article.

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Søren
morinist.dk
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 2.7.2018, 8:50 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 54
Sir1 hat Folgendes geschrieben:
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:
as he simply say wrappings do not add power.

I think you have to watch it again. He says quite the opposite, but also that it's more complicated than that. He actually says exactly the same as stated in the Swedish article.


That person does not exist for me Wink

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Br,
VesaII
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Sir1
Verfasst am: 2.7.2018, 10:13 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 04.01.2007 Beiträge: 1492
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:

That person does not exist for me Wink

Suit yourself, but have the facts straight.

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Søren
morinist.dk
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 2.7.2018, 10:42 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 54
Sir1 hat Folgendes geschrieben:
VesaII hat Folgendes geschrieben:

That person does not exist for me Wink

Suit yourself, but have the facts straight.


Actually, you havent put any facts but just telling how clever this guy is. You maybe can put all on table now?

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Br,
VesaII
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Sir1
Verfasst am: 2.7.2018, 11:52 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 04.01.2007 Beiträge: 1492
No point in having the discussion here. it’s going in a wrong direction. I’m referring to the facts in the second hand statements. You can use the sources however you want. I’m just pointing out what these say. Fact is both sources say the same about heat and pressure waves.

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Søren
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Ebi
Verfasst am: 2.7.2018, 20:44 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 19.11.2010 Beiträge: 1103 Wohnort: Backnang
Hi,
I don't know what this discussion is all about, but I agree with this point

Zitat:
But I hope for you that you wont have any damages from that considering all the work you put in it


br,
Ebi

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VesaII
Verfasst am: 4.7.2018, 21:19 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 54
Ebi hat Folgendes geschrieben:
Hi,
I don't know what this discussion is all about, but I agree with this point

Zitat:
But I hope for you that you wont have any damages from that considering all the work you put in it


br,
Ebi


No worries Ebi, it is very hard to damage engine with better cooling fluid Smile

Find word Evans here: https://www.granpasso.eu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4160


Zuletzt bearbeitet von VesaII am 15.11.2018, 21:36, insgesamt 2-mal bearbeitet

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Br,
VesaII
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 9.7.2018, 10:18 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 54
Hi all

First start try is done. Did pump oil up to cams, but engine did not start. No smell of gasoline inside of injectors.

Phonic wheel sensor sealing was the cause. It was too thick. Picture did not show any, so i used wrong one. Correct one look like this, but is not mentioned in manual.




After this change it makes some successfull ignitions, but does not start. I guess mixture is too lean, cause of new injectors.

I also got current bin out (2337MOR95OL) but it cannot be opened with those XDF:s i got of Ebi.

With Mac GuzziDiag is not telling anything. With Windows GuzziDiag is is working, but gives strange reading and still no usefull bin comes out.

I guess cheap cable is the problem, but it just a guess and better ideas are highly appreciated...

***
New cable ordered


Zuletzt bearbeitet von VesaII am 11.7.2018, 10:16, insgesamt einmal bearbeitet

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Br,
VesaII
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 11.7.2018, 9:39 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 54
Oh crap

One more problem. Butterfly valve of injector have a hairline crack.

Can it be welded or where to get spare parts for this? Initial googleing did not gave much... Basically it should be easy to change. Second hand would be great.

****

Fixed. Zombie metalworks saved me again. Now with silver and hammer Smile




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Br,
VesaII
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 18.7.2018, 19:48 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 54
Tuesday 20 March 2018

Engine started and 2x5km 'ride' done. But some possible problems found and i need to reopen engine once more as i used Hylomar in some parts, which was no good idea. I need to check if blue porridge has gone to oil circulation and clogged some vital nozzles.

I also like to say a few word about compression ratio, as it is something very different Morini gives out. As you know Wahl may deliver higher compression pistons and so current compression ratio need to be checked.

With help of a plexi glas and syringe i filled every empty space with water and result looks like this:

Cyl = 594ml

Combustion chamber
32ml
Piston valve pockets
Intake 2x 8ml
Ex 2x 6ml
=28ml
Head gasket ,5mm + piston top to cyl top clearance
1,5mm= 18ml
Total
32+28+18=78 ml
Makes ->
(594+78)/78=8,6154 !!!

If this really is correct, then 11-12 is enough big improvement. This is achievable by rising piston top to cyl head clearance to 1mm, smaller valve pockets and maybe a minor dome, but rather not. https://www.hotrod.com/articles/inside-piston-design-dish-dome-flat-top-pistons-explained

Compression pressure is now 140-150. This is measured with disabled half compression device on exhaust cam.

Only drawback with higher compression is need for ignition retiming, higher octaine fuel and less exhaust sound and more jerkiness, i guess.

Different compression ratios and combustion chamber volume change.
-10ml
(594+68)/68=9,7353
-15ml
(594+63)/63=10,4286
-20ml
(594+58)/58=11,2414
-25ml
(594+53)/53=12,2075





Zuletzt bearbeitet von VesaII am 19.10.2018, 21:37, insgesamt 9-mal bearbeitet

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Br,
VesaII
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 22.8.2018, 21:30 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 54
Today at last i got time to flush Hylomar pieces out of oil channels. They was not many, but i like to be sure and hope they all came out...

Next step was to get oil up and do compression pressure measurement. Idea was to do this before all electric parts was in place, but only those needed to crank engine. So coils, injectors and fans were not connected. Battery was connected and electricity was turned on. All looked good. Then i pushed start button and nothing happened but all lights vanished from instrument panel / dashboard (M3060000240). It got totally black.

Did remove battery and waited some time and connected battery again and rpm meter began to shake a bit. Then i turned key and shaking stopped but red indicator began to blink. Morini manual do not tell what it is for.

ECU was possible to connect with Ducatidiag and IAW reader.



*****

Root cause found. Earth cable, the other one, from battery to engine, was not on place on engine side and this happened. Merde.

Hope it is some wire which is burned off and not ecu or dashboard. Wonder if there is wiring diagram available somewhere?

****

Issue solved.


Zuletzt bearbeitet von VesaII am 9.9.2018, 8:11, insgesamt 2-mal bearbeitet

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Br,
VesaII
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 25.8.2018, 19:59 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 54
Hello

Engine rebuild Stage I is nearly done. Dyno day at AJ-Bike was a great success and i will make more detailed description of it later.

People always ask how much hp did you get, but most often it is not very important as we do not turn gas full open very often, but rather enjoy more of midrange torque, which improved here a lot.

On dyno day AJ went through every rpm and every throttle position at least 10 times. Both cylinders tuned individually. Mapping was done for full power or as 'race mapping' as A/F target was 13:1. After this was achieved he did some leaning in those areas where highway cruising is happening.

Today after some 150km trip with 80% of riding in 'economy area' i got consumption 6L/100km. There is some minor issues left, like idle a/f on front cylinder which was not possible to correct, but sporty driveability is now superb. Also economy target was <5l/100km, but i believe it is achievable and same time to have full power race map where it is useful Smile

Here some traditional full gas maps attached. Will later publish some more important ones below 'Mappings' thread.

Starting point was Scrambler map, scaled up for new injectors (gray lines) and coloured lines are a result of Dyno Day with measured RPM, not the more impressive one shown on dashboard. Showing higher rpm values is common practice for factories, AJ told me.

Actually i was waiting a bit more hp, but this is what we got. Or maybe AJ dyno is just a bit conservative. Anyway bike is fast enough for me and usable rpm ranges and throttle positions are much broader than before.



And Le Chef on bars



Zuletzt bearbeitet von VesaII am 15.11.2018, 21:41, insgesamt 2-mal bearbeitet

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Br,
VesaII
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VesaII
Verfasst am: 23.10.2018, 17:58 Antworten mit Zitat
Morinisti Morinisti
Anmeldedatum: 24.04.2018 Beiträge: 54
It is time to close Stage I engine rebuild and make minor summary

Engine is now running quite well as i finally found reason for jerkiness. The lower hose clamp on front cylinder was not properly in place and throttle body hose was not well seated. Fixing this helped to reduce jerkiness and AFR surely dropped from 17. Still it is not as smooth as KTM V2. This can be by design as phonic wheel is on exhaust cam and not on more stable crank. But i guess smootness can be improved a bit on next dyno run.

Most irritating issue left is head gasket leak. Oil is coming out and pressure is leaking to cooling system. Will remove heads once more and use this http://www.vhtpaint.com/specialty/vht-copper-gasket-cement if nothing better is suggested. Head bolts deserve Viton o-rings too, just in case. Oil filter cover got a thicker o-ring (3,5mm) as original was not enough.

List can grow in future, but at the moment i trust these products: DLC coating, Wahl pistons, modified Bosch injectors, Brisk (AOR10LGS) sparkplugs and Evans which is obviously stuff creating big emotions. But for me it is very simple:

It is not corrosive
It does not ever boil and create always potentially harmfull pressure in system.
In other words great stuff as people at Granpasso forum know:
https://www.granpasso.eu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3876&p=51112&hilit=evans&sid=8c742870b38b3b5f248f51d9535711de#p51112

Pictures below show how differently each injector brand work. Visible is area cleaned up by fuel. In case of Bosch big part of fuel does not touch walls as with Weber most of it goes toward wall. On street Weber injectors with Scrambler mapping feels a bit lazy compared to Bosch with dynoed mapping.




One modified Bosch injector in between original Webers. Picture explains quite well why injection footprints look as they do.


For those who are interested in TBC coating. This is good article to begin: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S111001681400088X

And please share your dyno experiences: http://www.ital-web.de/forum/viewforum.php?f=48

So, stage I is basically done but removing of heads creates a possibility and urge to continue with development even further. I have already exchanged a few words with Erland at Topplocksverkstan. He has scientific approach on matter of head redesign which sure is a useful ingredient when blended with Italian passion http://www.topplocksverkstan.se/insuglangder.html

And i like to thank nice people like Ebi, Oliver and Gerhard who have helped me. Thank you very much!

And thanks all for reading.


Zuletzt bearbeitet von VesaII am 17.11.2018, 11:21, insgesamt 25-mal bearbeitet

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Br,
VesaII
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